dungeon_grrrl ([info]dungeon_grrrl) wrote,
@ 2008-07-28 22:09:00
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Corporate Conversation
FANS: So, Corporate WotC. May I call you Cor-Wiz?

COR-WIZ: As long as you don't spell it with a $, or a cents-mark, you can call us whatever you want!

FANS: Great, thanks. So, how are sales of 4e going?

COR-WIZ: Perfect, thanks for asking! The numbers are cool, and extreme! And, better than we thought. In fact, we've reprinted already.

FANS: Oh, neat! That's nice  to hear. Too bad you couldn't believe in the success of the product enough in advance to print more to begin with and give fans a price break early-on, like with 3e.

COR-WIZ: We decided that, as with most things 3e, price-breaks for fans aren't properly balanced at high levels.

FANS: Uh-huh. Well, so. Are you using the money earned to expand into new grounds, do new things, or at least do some D&D-style TV adds, like those MAGIC adds a decade ago?*

COR-WIZ: Ah, well. It's a complex corporate issue. There are many factors, but... Not so much. No. I'd say no.

FANS: No? Oh, well... okay. Are you at least rolling out some new stuff tied to these games you're so excited about?

COR-WIZ: Well, we are refocusing on these brands, yes. In fact, we're closing almost everything we have tried that was in different fields in the past two years, to refocus. So, no more Gleemax, or non-game fiction, so we can refocus!

FANS: Oh, so you aren't happy with how things are going?

COR-WIZ: Don't put words in our mouth! We're very happy. Everything about 4e is cool and perfect.

FANS:Than why the need to refocus?

COR-WIZ: Mumble-clear throat.

FANS:So, if you're not doing anything new, and everything is perfect, what are you refocusing on?

COR-WIZ: Well... finishing the stuff we originally said we'd have out by now.

FANS:Ah. The online things you hope we'll pay a monthly fee for.

COR-WIZ: Exactly!

FANS: Even though you have no history of maintaining a web series, program or adventure path in a timely manner for as long as two years. Ever. In the history of your D&D web support.

COR-WIZ: This one is different!

FANS: Well, I hope it isn't a big success! I'm not sure I could stand for you to kill anything else you do I'm enjoying to refocus on your big successes. Which reminds me, are the D&D messageboards up right now?

COR-WIZ: I'm going back to ENworld!

FANS: Okay. While you're there, how about you ask them how the destruction of a twenty-year tradition of paper Dungeon and Dragon magazines is driving people to *your* web site. Or how much those fans paid for your web content to date, so you can compare it to the licensing fees you would have earned from Paizo by now.

(Crickets)

 http://www.gleemax.com/Comms/Pages/Communities/BlogPost.aspx?blogpostid=96074&pagemode=2&blogid=2158

http://ww2.wizards.com/books/Wizards/default.aspx?doc=main_discoveries07252008&=RSS-BOOKS


*Edit: As a factual note, I have been informed there were 4e D&D ads on TV. If you saw one, let us know what it was like, and when you saw it! (And, if you remember, during what show?)


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[info]plmvent
2008-07-29 03:54 am UTC (link)
That's another reason to play GURPS. :)

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-29 09:01 pm UTC (link)
I would if I could stand the physics in it, They are far too real for my gaming needs.

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(no subject) - [info]plmvent, 2008-07-29 10:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-30 08:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]phalazar, 2008-07-30 10:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]plmvent, 2008-07-30 11:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-31 12:02 am UTC (Expand)

[info]stannex
2008-07-29 04:21 am UTC (link)
*snort!*

(I actually snorted out loud while reading this!)

It would be funnier if it wasn't so TRUE!!!!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-29 09:02 pm UTC (link)
Well apparently some of it ISN'T true, so it should now be FUNNIER!

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(no subject) - [info]sterlinganon, 2008-07-30 06:01 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-30 08:59 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]operations
2008-07-29 04:44 am UTC (link)
Well, at least I'm happy about Gleemax going down.

Really, maybe now they'll go back to the forum setup they had before that actually worked.

But honestly, no matter how much you (or anyone else for that matter) complains, 3.5 is not coming back as official WoTC product.

Really, do what I do. Consider 3.5 like the newer version of AD&D and 4E as the newer version of OD&D. Each is D&D, but different flavors depending on what you want. 3.5 is D&D for the good fantasy novel crowd (even if I still say Vancian magic needs to die painfully). 4E is D&D for the matrix crowd. Odds are you like a bit of both, depending on the day or mood.

It's not like at this point you could run out of stuff to do with all the 3.5 stuff printed anyway. ;-)

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[info]frankwanderer
2008-07-29 01:54 pm UTC (link)
*chuckles*

I, for one, do not see that any points about 3.5 "coming back" or the author wanting 3.5 to "come back" are really being made at all. Points about what seems to have brought matters into the present day are quite another matter.

Frank the Wanderer

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(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-29 09:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]operations, 2008-07-29 11:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-29 11:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sterlinganon, 2008-07-30 06:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]patrickjw, 2008-07-30 02:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-30 08:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sterlinganon, 2008-07-30 10:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]operations, 2008-07-31 01:38 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-08-01 12:10 am UTC (Expand)

[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-29 09:01 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I know 3.5 is dead and gone from WotC halls. And I have Pathfinder, so I don't care a lick about that.

That doesn't mean I can't get irritated when the OEN company that really can expand awareness into whole new areas, and that MIGHT be able to create Gamebook (you know facebook for gamers -- almost any name is better than gleemax) is giving up, rather than trying something with the tons of feedback given.

And ditching novels people were both excited to get published, and hoping to read.

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(no subject) - [info]phalazar, 2008-07-29 11:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]operations, 2008-07-29 11:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-29 11:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Facebook for Gaming? - [info]terraleon, 2008-07-31 08:32 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Facebook for Gaming? - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-08-01 12:10 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Facebook for Gaming? - [info]terraleon, 2008-08-01 12:45 am UTC (Expand)

[info]lofro
2008-07-29 06:47 am UTC (link)
That last line there ("how much those fans paid for your web content to date...") is so true it's painful.

Sigh. How I miss thee, o dear magazines of my youth. (And I'm freakin' 22, which just makes it sadder.)

-E

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-29 09:03 pm UTC (link)
I suspect they, too, are gone gone gone.

But I LIKE Pathfinder, so that works for me.

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(no subject) - [info]sterlinganon, 2008-07-30 06:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-30 09:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sterlinganon, 2008-07-30 10:15 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]bookkeeper
2008-07-29 09:58 am UTC (link)
I even used Gleemax when it rolled out. I've never been much of a forums-type dude (All the drama of a daytime soap with none of the sex!), but I liked the idea of trying to get gamers to a central location. I float around teh IntarWebs enough that you would think I'd have seen talk of Gleemax popping up all over the place. Instead, I ran into talk about RPG.net, ENWorld, ImberCorvus (though that'd be mostly from you)...why was "the place for gamers" never talked about by gamers who weren't already there?

Ah well, as business people, they seem to make decent game designers.

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-29 09:04 pm UTC (link)
To be fair, the game designers AREN'T the ones making these decisions.

And I suspect you didnt see it talked about much ebcause it sucked.

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[info]selinker
2008-07-29 12:05 pm UTC (link)
I'd fire off the obvious "Since they're refocusing, somebody else gets to take the initiative" line, but that joke's not even 4E-compatible.

Mike

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-29 09:04 pm UTC (link)
Huh. You're right. I hadn't noticed.

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(no subject) - [info]gargoyle2k3, 2008-07-30 02:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-30 02:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gargoyle2k3, 2008-07-30 02:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-30 03:22 am UTC (Expand)

[info]varianor
2008-07-29 12:09 pm UTC (link)
Funny and well-written. I came back this morning to read it a second time for a good laugh.

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-29 09:05 pm UTC (link)
Thanks!

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[info]phalazar
2008-07-29 12:48 pm UTC (link)
Damn that was funny and sad at the same time. I laughed out load several times reading that. It is too bad their over-reaching is killing off all the other lines they did.

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-29 09:05 pm UTC (link)
Do you think it's over-reaching? I think it's just an inability to accept less than maximum short-term profits.

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(no subject) - [info]phalazar, 2008-07-29 11:04 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sterlinganon, 2008-07-30 06:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-30 09:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sterlinganon, 2008-08-01 10:17 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]akaihyo
2008-07-29 12:54 pm UTC (link)
The idea of a gamer social networking site was good, it is just that Gleemax was so user-unfriendly that it never really had a good chance of being that.

Shame that the online part of D&D is falling so far behind. While I am not a fan of D&D 4e, I want new gamers to have a good experience (online as well as in person) so they will stay with the hobby and maybe learn other RPGs in time.

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-29 09:06 pm UTC (link)
The online tabletop might win me over.

Might.

If it ever shows up.

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(no subject) - [info]akaihyo, 2008-07-29 09:11 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]dclingman
2008-07-29 01:01 pm UTC (link)
Bravo!!!

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-29 09:07 pm UTC (link)
Danke!

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[info]akitrom
2008-07-29 02:33 pm UTC (link)
Yay on you. And it's good to see you post. We (well, okay, I) was getting worried.

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-29 09:08 pm UTC (link)
Sorry dear-heart. i remain too busy. :(

But thanks for the kudos!

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[info]billzilla
2008-07-29 02:38 pm UTC (link)
Touche'!

B.

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-29 09:09 pm UTC (link)
I am proficient with sarcasm rapier!

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[info]gamescribe
2008-07-29 05:41 pm UTC (link)
You know, I'm probably setting myself up for failure here, but I'm not sure what the point of this was. As far as humor goes, it wasn't very funny to me, because it's the snarkiest interpretation of things, not to mention just plain wrong.

1) The print run of 4E was bigger than the initial runs for 3rd and 3.5. 4th Edition sold well and surprised people with how well it was doing, so we had to go back for a reprint. I think it's ludicrous to try and spin "having to reprint the book this soon" as a bad thing or a failure on peoples' part. If Pathfinder sells out of its first run, are you going to write up a snarky message to Paizo about how they should have printed more if they had so much confidence in their system? No. A reprint should be applauded as a success, regardless of the game.

2) Wizards did do D&D TV advertisements for 4th Edition.

3) Refocusing on 4E doesn't mean people aren't happy with how 4E is doing. I don't think it's any big secret that Gleemax, for example, didn't turn out as well as was hoped. If anything, refocusing means, "Hey, our D&D game is doing well. Let's use our resources to support that rather than to try and prop up Gleemax." If anything, it's a testament to D&D's success.

4) Yeah, D&DI has been disappointing in that it's not out entirely (although two major elements of it ARE up and running). Yet I find it hilarious that you can turn getting huge amounts of free material in the meantime into a bad thing. If Paizo said, "Hey, we're not going to have everything for this product ready in time, so instead we're going to give you a bunch of it for free to make up for it," you'd be cheering them for their excellent customer service.

No, the real issue is that people aren't happy about not renewing the magazine license, and that's understandable. To dress it up as anything but that is disingenuous.

Lastly, all I'm going to say is that I'm not totally a Kool-Aid drinking robot-man. I realize that not everything that happens here is good, or perfect. Hell, my own products aren't even remotely perfect. But I think this kind of snarky attempted humor is just destructive. All it does is foster divisiveness between the fanbase. And yeah, I'll admit it: I love my job. I've got the best job in the world. I bet a lot of people at other companies feel the same way. I'd love to know why other companies get a pass and Wizards gets the potshots, but you know, maybe I don't want to know after all.

I don't mean to pick on you, but this post just poked me and made me want to respond.

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[info]gamescribe
2008-07-29 05:47 pm UTC (link)
Also: I realized I referenced Paizo a couple of times, but I only did so because I know you're a big Paizo fan (as am I, by the way). My point is that you SHOULD congratulate Paizo is Pathfinder sells out, and you SHOULD applaud them on their good customer service, but I think you should do that regardless of company. Paizo, Green Ronin, Goodman, Necromance, all those companies are awesome and do great things, and I owe my career to them. I just don't think you can ignore when Wizards does good things too.

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(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-29 08:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]phalazar, 2008-07-29 11:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-29 08:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lofro, 2008-07-29 09:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-29 09:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]seankreynolds, 2008-07-29 09:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-29 09:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gamescribe, 2008-07-29 10:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]seankreynolds, 2008-07-30 12:26 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gamescribe, 2008-07-29 10:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-30 09:18 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]streetmonk1971, 2008-07-31 10:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gamescribe, 2008-07-31 11:04 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]streetmonk1971, 2008-07-31 11:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-08-01 12:16 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]streetmonk1971, 2008-08-01 12:29 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-08-01 12:15 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stannex, 2008-07-29 10:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]phalazar, 2008-07-29 11:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stannex, 2008-07-29 10:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-08-01 12:12 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stannex, 2008-08-01 03:33 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-08-01 03:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stannex, 2008-08-01 07:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-08-01 08:07 am UTC (Expand)

[info]wesschneider
2008-07-29 09:18 pm UTC (link)
*Hurk* I think this made me inhale a noodle. But I'm a big fan of all flavors of snark. ^_~

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-29 09:22 pm UTC (link)
The secret is to open the back of your throat, and suppress the gag reflex. The noodle then isn't an issue. :D

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(no subject) - [info]wesschneider, 2008-07-29 09:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-29 09:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stannex, 2008-07-29 11:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]phalazar, 2008-07-29 11:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-29 11:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sterlinganon, 2008-07-30 06:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-30 09:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sterlinganon, 2008-07-30 10:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-30 10:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yasha0006, 2008-07-30 10:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-30 11:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yasha0006, 2008-07-31 12:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sterlinganon, 2008-07-31 12:35 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yasha0006, 2008-07-31 01:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gaming_sam, 2008-07-31 05:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-07-31 06:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sterlinganon, 2008-07-31 06:04 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-08-01 12:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]savageplanet, 2008-07-30 07:29 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-07-30 09:59 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]patrickjw
2008-07-30 12:18 am UTC (link)
Hee! I enjoyed that as it summed up my experiences with the 4E marketing campaign (or lack thereof).

Having read the various comments posted after it, the only thing I have to add is that the two parts of DDI that are up are the press releases section and the Compendium, which is all the material that should have been in the index. The actual new (and hyped by WotC, not the fans) material is still "Coming Soon".

Shutting down Gleemax to work on that material seems to be a good business strategy - once those are up and running, WotC can close down the public access and start charging monthly fees for DDI as originally announced.

I have good things to say about the actual game developers and writers for 4E. I'll probably have more good things to say once the game is completely released (what is out now seems to just be a starter set). Out of everything announced for 4E, it was the books that made it out on schedule. That deserves kudos. Working in the tech writing industry, I know what kind of heroics are necessary at the end of a large project and the three books are well done.

Kudos to the writers!


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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-30 03:23 am UTC (link)
Apparently the marketing-specific nature of the post could have been played up more, but I *am* glad you enjoyed it.

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[info]gargoyle2k3
2008-07-30 01:56 am UTC (link)
*>APPLAUSE<* :)

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-30 03:23 am UTC (link)
Thanks, dearling!

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[info]eyebeams
2008-07-30 11:56 am UTC (link)
Shutting down Gleemax was a good idea, because Gleemax was a terrible idea. The trouble with Gleemax was that it's a closed network. People only join after they're customers, and the content doesn't get to non-customers. This makes it an awful social network, because to a corporation, social networks are marketing tools. It costs money, to boot.

At some point, Hasbro obviously got a marketing professional who pointed out that just manipulating ENWorld (which is trivially easy, because ENWorld wants the attention) and other third party leader sites does what Gleemax did, but better, because:

1) It can expand the consumer base.

2) It doesn't cost them money (it's an externality, in other words).

(Incidentally, I am speaking wearing my marketing professional hat. I don't like wearing it in public, but . . .)

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-30 10:01 pm UTC (link)
Turning Gleemax into a more open forum, with tools you find on other successful networks *and* geek-specific tools, would have been an even *better* idea for the health of the industry as a whole.

WotC may not want to shell out that money, but they shouldn't "blame" that on 4e.

Nice hat, though!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]dragonklaw82
2008-07-30 08:07 pm UTC (link)
Wow...scathing. I wish I could argue with some of this stuff, but I gotta admit, the death of Dungeon and Dragon in print was just plain wrong. *sigh* I miss my fresh, crisp magazines every month. Oh well, at least there's Pathfinder.

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-30 10:01 pm UTC (link)
I agree, obviously.

What price fan satisfaction?

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[info]home.greywulf.net
2008-07-30 10:01 pm UTC (link)
Both funny AND true. You're a genius.

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-30 10:02 pm UTC (link)
::blushes::

Thanks, sweetie.

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[info]yasha0006
2008-07-30 11:00 pm UTC (link)
Now that I am done catching up on the comments...

Well said and by what cunning snarkiness!

While there are, obviously, some who don't see things this way, I feel that your little skit certainly exemplified the way I feel WoTC is handling the situation. The same exact way they have been handling it for a year now.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it is a great deal more WoTCs attitude and customer service that has turned me off to them than anything else, even 4th edition. I may not like 4th edition (just not my style), but I would still be buying WoTC products if not for the fact that I don't have faith in them as a company anymore. While in this particular slump, I came across Paizo and saw a completely different alternative. I like belonging to a forum and sharing in the experience of a company like them.

What other company do I have the Editor in Chief (i.e. James Jacobs) and I have the occasional conversations about Geckos? Or that I can see him or Erik of Nick or even Lisa Stevens in the chatroom each week? There is something to be said for a company of the fans, for the fans. *bows*

A salute to you as always Dungeon Grrrl! Oh, and we need you over on the Female Gamer Needing Her Voice Heard! thread on Paizo. Whenever you get the chance! And you can take the salute comment however you like :p

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-07-31 12:00 am UTC (link)
Honey, I'll take it the same way I take ALL your salutes...

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(no subject) - [info]yasha0006, 2008-07-31 12:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-08-01 12:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yasha0006, 2008-08-01 01:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yasha0006, 2008-08-01 01:40 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dungeon_grrrl, 2008-08-01 08:08 am UTC (Expand)

[info]anonynos
2008-08-01 01:44 pm UTC (link)
I told myself I wasn't going to bother replying... but since new comments are still appearing here, lets waste some more electrons...

I'll go out on a limb and say I didn't really find it humorous. :P I may be the only non-WOTC employee to say that but, eh. It's basically a cheap shot that seems to pander to the anti-WotC/4e fanboi crowd. Yes. I rouse that rabble. Oh noes. :P

I guess I just agree with Gamescribe... I don't think this sort of thing is terribly... useful. Which isn't to say I think people should say their thing, and I'm walking on to your blog here, so I don't want to come off like STFU! or anything. I just, you know, sometimes think people need to hear the voice of dissent, if there is one. :P

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[info]dungeon_grrrl
2008-08-01 05:11 pm UTC (link)
No, you don't come off as STFU at all, and all polite comments are always welcome!

Care to tell us a little about yourself, so I can build a context around your opinion? (Obviously it's fine to say no -- lord knows I'm cagey about personal infor. I'm just wondering where you are coming from, overall).

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(no subject) - [info]anonynos, 2008-08-01 06:27 pm UTC (Expand)

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